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Using kids to push same-sex marriage


A while back I defended J. C. Penney's decision to hire Ellen DeGeneres as their spokeswoman. And I stand by that, because being a spokeswoman for a department store is generally a morally neutral activity. There's no particular reason that any given talk show host shouldn't recommend that people buy from this or that store.

Now, when Ellen gets a little boy on her show and encourages him to talk up same-sex marriage -- that's when we need to call her out for inappropriate and harmful activities.

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I wrote "But I thought this was about Ellen using children for political-social purposes."

I've re-thought this, and perhaps we should debate gay marriage as an issue anytime and anywhere we can. It's entirely possible that we may not have that freedom much longer:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/301641/canadian-crackdown-michael-coren

Interestingly, some of my gay friends feel that gay marriage is unnecessary, and as an issue is an unwelcome irritant to those with whom they'd like to be friends.

Furthermore, it can be difficult to make the acquaintance of a gay person. They only represent 5% of the population, after all.

I've been listening to the audiobook version of Eric's "Socrates in the City" book. (It is worth the price simply to hear Eric introduce the speakers.) I just finished Paul Vitz's lecture on the correlation of atheism to poor or absent fathers in the lives of famous atheists, versus the presence of good fathers or father surrogates for famous theists. My gay friends have uniformly poor relationships with their parents. I wonder if the issue of gay marriage isn't in part motivated by a desire to destroy or at least devalue an institution that failed these people?

Hmmm - Ellen's parents divorced when she was thirteen.

And an interesting bit of trivia is that before her standup comedy took off, Ellen was actually a J.C. Penney employee. I wonder if any of her standup material refers to that experience; might make a fun contrast to her commercials.

But I see two elephants in the room here: First, have we established that it's wrong for someone to use children to support an issue of this level of social and political significance, and if so, why would it be wrong? Second, is this tactic ("If you are against this issue, you're against the little children who support it, you big meanie!") only used by the Left (as with the teachers who took their classes on "field trips" to protest Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin), or also by the Right? I.e., should we be impartially condemning this practice anywhere it occurs?
My, how timely!
Today's Break Point commentary, by Eric Metaxas:

http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/19521

This in part is why I am sceptical of the studies that show one is 'born gay,' or that change is impossible. But again in the larger view, even if a person has lasting desires and pangs to be with a person of the same sex, then the biblical call for him or her, as I see it, is to be celibate, and to bring their pangs and aches to the Lord in intense prayer.
Don't worry Carol, I am not worried about it. Like I said it was "being a gawky teenager." The point was that I do know that such things are not unchangeable because in fact I personally remember them changing and if gayness in fact cannot change and cannot be resisted then it is a different thing entirely.

The point about mentioning my rather exasperating singlehood was simply to point out that gays aren't the only ones who find sexual disappointment unpleasant. Social awkwardness and financial limitations are enough.
I don't really like the "Ellen Degenerate" nickname, and would prefer that we didn't use it around here. I mean, puns can be fun and all that, but I think Christians need to set a better tone than that if we're going to show what it looks like to disagree respectfully, and to speak truth in love.
Jason, I wouldn't worry about the SSA in junior high. Everybody goes thru it, whether they admit it or not. It's a "normal" part of learning who we are, and where we belong in the world.

On the other hand, I got a big laugh out of your "Human sexuality is dysfunctional" line! Tell me about it! (Or, rather, please don't.) Fun? Sure! Confusing? Definitely! Maddening? Absolutely! I'm sorry you are an involuntary virgin, and hope that God gives you exactly what you need.

Finally, on the original subject, I always thought that Ellen Degenerate was cute as a bug's ear. I also thought it was a shame that J.C.'s didn't carry clothes in sizes that fit me. Now that Ellen has "come out", I don't watch anything she's in, including Penney's commercials. And, I'm convinced that Penney's doesn't carry anything that would interest me.
Oh well as far as "knowing how gay people feel", I know that I when I was in junior high was almost as much attracted to mental images of less-then-clad boys as girls. It never affected my life much and I was able to block that part out-"repress" it if you will. You can call it being "bi". I just call it being a gawky teenager.

That is why I say that SSA cannot be immaleable and irresistable. If it was it would be another thing entirely from other forms of sexuality, and if it was I would still feel it which I in fact do not. That does not tell me what being a full out SSA is "like" which does indeed sound unpleasant. But it does tell me clinically that much of their PR doth protest to much.

As for knowing what it is like to suffer because of sexual misfortune, why yes. I am an involuntary virgin and I am not the only one here. Others have suffered from bad marriages, and still others have suffered from-whatever. Human sexuality is dysfunctional and pretty much everyone ends up as collateral damage from it at one time or another.
Yes, we can say (as I did during Anthony's previous visit) that we actually do, in fact, know gay people, and we are nevertheless against gay marriage, but it won't bust the ignorance myth. Or should I say "ignorance prejudice".

But I thought this was about Ellen using children for political-social purposes.
You're right, Gina, and I wish more people got that. I have a great relationship with my gay nephew, and a more than civil one with other gay people I've known. Never has that led me to throw out my integrity as a Christian and pretend that homosexual behavior is fine, any more than my sins are.

I'd like people to accept or love me in spite of my sins and flaws, and not to dishonestly tell me that those sins and flaws are wonderful.
I think Kevin's touched on something important here: We're talking apples and oranges. Several people are basically saying, "Homosexual behavior is sinful." Anthony is basically saying, "I know lots of nice gay people." But these two are not mutually exclusive. Lots of sinners are nice. Their niceness has nothing to do with whether or not they are actually sinning.
Jason, I wish I could tell you that logic and reason are going to get you somewhere in this debate.
One last thing before I head to work for the night...

Last evening I went to my best friend Andrew's for dinner with him and 4 of our close friends, all of whom are gay men (I was the only straight person present). Over tacos, corn, orange Crush, and chips n' dip I related to everyone how I had begun posting again on this blog, and the different things all of you had to say with regards to the subject of homosexuality/SSM/etc. (without insulting anyone, of course) Out of everything everyone had to say during the discussion, our friend Matt's questions and statements sunk in the deepest for me:
(I'm not paraphrasing - I still remember his exact words)

"How can people who don't even know us pass judgement on us? What did we ever do to them? How do they know what we go through, and what gives them the right to contradict what we know about ourselves? Why can't straights be more like you, Anth (nickname)? You always hug us, dance and hang out with us, comfort us and you fight and stand up for us."

Those are pretty good questions...and on that note, have a great night everyone, and God bless you all.
1. Tolerance of something you have no reason to be intolerant of is meaningless. That is why the term is irrelevant.

2. I am glad that you have disavowed abortion.

3. My awareness that homosexuals are human beings is necessary for me to call homosexuality a vice.

4. What other sexual dispositions? Why my own, just to start with. I know I am at a higher level in springtime then at other times of the year and that I have been almost asexual at times. That is just to start with. That is enough to tell you as you are not my therapist.
@Jason:

1.) How is my tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality irrelevant? I could just as easily say that your INtolerance of homosexuality is irrelevant as well. Is my tolerance intolerable because I'm a progressive independent posting on a conservative-eaning blog? Or just because I happen to see nothing abhorrent or disgusting in homosexuality/homosexuals and you do? And Gina's taste for Charles Dickens is actually one I share with her - "A Christmas Carol" is one of my all-time favorite books!

2.) I don't see my views as inconsistent because while there is mounting evidence supporting genetics playing a role in homosexuality, I strain to find one shred of evidence linking incest to genetics. You also keep using the word "vice"...cigarettes, chocolate, alcohol, are all vices. Sex itself could be considered a vice, but it's demeaning to say specifically homosexual sex. In regards to abortion, I am against the practice. I know many homosexuals that are pro-choice, but I know even more that would rather take the child that could potentially be aborted and raise that child themselves. Would you prefer to see a child aborted or handed over to a same-sex couple and have that life spared? Personally, I would choose the latter.

3.)Oops, I'm out of order on the list. I'm addressing #2 here: What other sexual dispositions are you referring to exactly? A-sexuality? Why can't someone be attracted to no-one? Hey, at least you can count on them to not get married...

Are you aware that LGBT people are actually human beings too? Did you know they have jobs like we do, drive cars, go to the movies, some go to church, some are black, some are white, some are Asian, they're EVERYWHERE and they all do the same things WE do! Believe it or not Jason, they're actually quite similar to heterosexuals (except for same-sex attraction and their way(s) of having intercourse).
1. The fact that you tolerate homosexuality because you see nothing wrong with it is not only irrelevant it is not tolerating. None of us tolerate Gina's taste for Charles Dickens.

2. If homosexuality is as "inborn" as skin color it is different from other sexual dispositions which are perfectly capable of evolving.

3. It is inconsistent to be Ok with homosexuality and not Ok with incest. All that means is that one is Ok with a fashionable vice and not Ok with an unfashionable one. And for gays all it means is that they are against a vice they are not commiting and for a vice that they are. And not only is the claim of adoption as a "right" dubious but the fact that most advocates for gay marriage are also for abortion makes the worry about the genetics of children of incest sound like crocodile tears. Unless of course you are prepared to disavow abortion supporters?
My apologies Gina, I worded what I said in my first point incorrectly. What I meant was that I don't tolerate hearing that comparison from anyone, I did not mean Mr. Weaver specifically. He also has my apology.
Anthony, as editor of the blog and the person who enforces the rules, I will decide which comments we will and will not tolerate, okay?

Of course, if you find anyone else's comments intolerable, you may choose not to engage with that person.
@Fred:

1.) I tolerate homosexual "behavior" because I see nothing wrong with it (as long as safe practices are bring practices)...that's a pretty bold statement comparing homosexuality to child molestation, and that's something I definitely won't tolerate. Also, you then have to say heterosexuality is "risky" as well. Unplanned pregnancies (which can lead to abortion or a bad childhood for the child saved from such a practice), STDs...

2.)I'm actually not - we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, as I (and many others) believe homosexuality is an inborn trait, just like skin color, not a "learned behavior" resulting from "improper" child raising or a "choice". Like heterosexuality, homosexuality is associated with different kinds of lifestyles. A homosexual, like a straight person, can choose to be promiscuous, date, have relationships, or settle down and have a family. Grouping all the homosexuals together and say that they "live" one "lifestyle" is absurd when there are similarities between the 2 orientations.

3.) I'm not ok with incest - many many people aren't actually. Children procreated from incest relations usually suffer from developmental delays and other disabilities, and considering that many cases of rape are the result of incest (did I word that correctly?) I can't fore-see such a thing being legalized...ever. Also, this father and daughter "tried", but clearly did not succeed.

5.) How can you compare "alternate families" in crime-ridden and poverty-stricken areas of big cities to that of homosexual parenting? I had a single mother, and I think I turned out alright. I've known a few homosexual parents/families over the years - their children, as far as I can tell, have turned out perfectly normal, and the parents themselves are totally dedicated to their children's lives.
Tolerance Can Be a Bad Thing
@Anthony Loreno

In response to your points,

1.) Tolerating people does not mean that you must tolerate their behavior. This leads to dangerous waters as shown by how Hollywood is so "tolerant" that many actors will support child rapists like director Roman Polanski.

2.) I think your confusing homosexuality with skin color. The former is a risky lifestyle while the other doesn't impact your health. (By the way, I'm Black.)

3.) Marriage is privilege not a right. Religious liberty, voting and free speech are actual rights.

4.) So, are you okay with incest? After all, a father and an adult daughter recently tried to use love to convince a court that their sexual union should be legal.

5.) Visit any poverty, crime ridden inner city neighborhood to see what happens when alternate "families" become the norm. Actually, last year's riots in the UK also demonstrated what happens when the traditional family collapses.

Just something to think about.
"Looking at the page you linked to, it's not clear that she needed to encourage him to talk up same-sex marriage. But I suspect she knew the political preferences of the family, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the kid's parents put him up to it, knowing how the host would respond."
-Maybe, just MAYBE, their parents are teaching them very early on that:
1.) Tolerance is not deviant and should be promoted.
2.) It's OK to be gay.
3.) Asking for the SAME RIGHTS as others is not asking for "special rights".
4.) Discrimination isn't a family value, LOVE IS.
5.) There are many types of families, not just husband-wife and 8 kids. Though I identify as heterosexual, and I love my mom, stepdad, grandma, aunt uncle and (best) cousin (in the world), I consider the gay community where I live to be a family to me as well.

She was just asking him questions, and he answered them in his own way. For someone as young and small as he is, I'd say he's rather intelligent (not because of his views, but the way he answered the questions in such a well-spoken manner for a child his age).

I hope that if I have kids someday, I'll be able to instill in them the same values these parents instilled in their kids, and that they grow up to be just like their dad - a good friend, a decent human being, and somebody who loves and accepts everyone, even if they're "different". I know for certain that no matter where life takes me, gay people will definitely be a part of my kids lives (hey, I'll need a babysitter here and there!) and my own.
Ellen's Activism Vindicates Critics, Hurts JCP
@Tabitha Twichit

The irony is that JCPenney picking Ellen as spokeswoman was a bad bargain, profit wise. The New York Times reports the retailer suffered a big loss in sales in its first quarter:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/16/business/retailers-hit-profit-mark-but-sales-fall-short.html

Unlike the secular press, the Christian site Onenewsnow asks if some customers may have been turned off by a homosexual activist like Ellen:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Business/Default.aspx?id=1601822

Like One Million Moms, I suspect growing numbers of Christian customers were concerned that the hiring of Ellen would lead to JC Penney launching pro-homosexual propaganda like the recent homosexual dads ads. So, without making a fuss, these customers stop shopping at JCP.
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